Oroborus

[LunaBaby]

Link

[LunaBaby]

The top four biggest gains in Wall Street's history (percentage wise) were:

1) March 15, 1933
2) June 10, 1931
3) October 30, 1929 (literally the day after "the Crash")
4) September 21, 1932

They all fell within the Great Depression!!!!
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[Brock]

I thought about rolling over my money market, but felt the retail sales projections might throw it down if Obama says Boycott Christmas and save your money. I think there might be another bottom.
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Get glad or stay mad.

[LunaBaby]

Why would Obama say to boycott Christmas?

No I don't think this is over either. The underlying problems have not been fixed.
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[deb cathey]

here is a timeline to the great depression. it is rather long but there are many similarities.

TIMELINES OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION:

This page features two timelines: the first for general events of the Roaring 20s and the Great Depression, the second for leading economic indicators.

The importance of these timelines cannot be emphasized enough. Seeing the order in which events actually occurred dispels many myths about the Great Depression. One of the greatest of these myths is that government intervention was responsible for its onset. Truly massive intervention began only under the presidency of Franklin Roosevelt in 1933, who was sworn in after the worst had already hit. Although his New Deal did not cure it, all the leading economic indicators improved on his watch.

But don't take my word for it -- here is the raw data:

TIMELINE OF GENERAL EVENTS

1920s (Decade)

* During World War I, federal spending grows three times larger than tax collections. When the government cuts back spending to balance the budget in 1920, a severe recession results. However, the war economy invested heavily in the manufacturing sector, and the next decade will see an explosion of productivity... although only for certain sectors of the economy.

* An average of 600 banks fail each year.

* Agricultural, energy and coal mining sectors are continually depressed. Textiles, shoes, shipbuilding and railroads continually decline.

* The value of farmland falls 30 to 40 percent between 1920 and 1929.

* Organized labor declines throughout the decade. The United Mine Workers Union will see its membership fall from 500,000 in 1920 to 75,000 in 1928. The American Federation of Labor would fall from 5.1 million in 1920 to 3.4 million in 1929.

* "Technological unemployment" enters the nation's vocabulary; as many as 200,000 workers a year are replaced by automatic or semi-automatic machinery.

* Over the decade, about 1,200 mergers will swallow up more than 6,000 previously independent companies; by 1929, only 200 corporations will control over half of all American industry.

* By the end of the decade, the bottom 80 percent of all income-earners will be removed from the tax rolls completely. Taxes on the rich will fall throughout the decade.

* By 1929, the richest 1 percent will own 40 percent of the nation's wealth. The bottom 93 percent will have experienced a 4 percent drop in real disposable per-capita income between 1923 and 1929.

* The middle class comprises only 15 to 20 percent of all Americans.

* Individual worker productivity rises an astonishing 43 percent from 1919 to 1929. But the rewards are being funneled to the top: the number of people reporting half-million dollar incomes grows from 156 to 1,489 between 1920 and 1929, a phenomenal rise compared to other decades. But that is still less than 1 percent of all income-earners.

1922

* The conservative Supreme Court strikes down federal child labor legislation.

1923

* President Warren Harding dies in office; his administration was easily one of the most corrupt in American history. Calvin Coolidge, who is squeaky clean by comparison, becomes president. Coolidge is no less committed to laissez-faire and a non-interventionist government. He announces to the American people: "The business of America is business."

* Supreme Court nullifies minimum wage for women in District of Columbia.

1924

* The Ku Klux Klan reaches the height of its influence in America: by the end of the year it will claim 9 million members. It will decline drastically in 1925, however, after financial and moral scandals rock its leadership.

* The stock market begins its spectacular rise. Bears little relation to the rest of the economy.

1925

* The top tax rate is lowered to 25 percent - the lowest top rate in the eight decades since World War I.

* Supreme Court rules that trade organizations do not violate anti-trust laws as long as some competition survives.

1928

* The construction boom is over.

* Farmers' share of the national income has dropped from 15 to 9 percent since 1920.

* Between May 1928 and September 1929, the average prices of stocks will rise 40 percent. Trading will mushroom from 2-3 million shares per day to over 5 million. The boom is largely artificial.

1929

* Herbert Hoover becomes President. Hoover is a staunch individualist but not as committed to laissez-faire ideology as Coolidge.

* More than half of all Americans are living below a minimum subsistence level.

* Annual per-capita income is $750; for farm people, it is only $273.

* Backlog of business inventories grows three times larger than the year before. Public consumption markedly down.

* Freight carloads and manufacturing fall.

* Automobile sales decline by a third in the nine months before the crash.

* Construction down $2 billion since 1926.

* Recession begins in August, two months before the stock market crash. During this two month period, production will decline at an annual rate of 20 percent, wholesale prices at 7.5 percent, and personal income at 5 percent.

* Stock market crash begins October 24. Investors call October 29 "Black Tuesday." Losses for the month will total $16 billion, an astronomical sum in those days.

* Congress passes Agricultural Marketing Act to support farmers until they can get back on their feet.

1930

* By February, the Federal Reserve has cut the prime interest rate from 6 to 4 percent. Expands the money supply with a major purchase of U.S. securities. However, for the next year and a half, the Fed will add very little money to the shrinking economy. (At no time will it actually pull money out of the system.) Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon announces that the Fed will stand by as the market works itself out: "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate real estate… values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wreck from less-competent people." (More)

* The Smoot-Hawley Tariff passes on June 17. With imports forming only 6 percent of the GNP, the 40 percent tariffs work out to an effective tax of only 2.4 percent per citizen. Even this is compensated for by the fact that American businesses are no longer investing in Europe, but keeping their money stateside. The consensus of modern economists is that the tariff made only a minor contribution to the Great Depression in the U.S., but a major one in Europe. (More)

* The first bank panic occurs later this year; a public run on banks results in a wave of bankruptcies. Bank failures and deposit losses are responsible for the contracting money supply.

* Supreme Court rules that the monopoly U.S. Steel does not violate anti-trust laws as long as competition exists, no matter how negligible.

* Democrats gain in Congressional elections, but still do not have a majority.

* The GNP falls 9.4 percent from the year before. The unemployment rate climbs from 3.2 to 8.7 percent.

1931

* No major legislation is passed addressing the Depression.

* A second banking panic occurs in the spring.

* The GNP falls another 8.5 percent; unemployment rises to 15.9 percent.

1932

* This and the next year are the worst years of the Great Depression. For 1932, GNP falls a record 13.4 percent; unemployment rises to 23.6 percent.

* Industrial stocks have lost 80 percent of their value since 1930.

* 10,000 banks have failed since 1929, or 40 percent of the 1929 total.

* About $2 billion in deposits have been lost since 1929.

* Money supply has contracted 31 percent since 1929.

* GNP has also fallen 31 percent since 1929.

* Over 13 million Americans have lost their jobs since 1929.

* Capital growth investments have dropped from $16.2 billion to 1/3 of one billion since 1929.

* Farm prices have fallen 53 percent since 1929.

* International trade has fallen by two-thirds since 1929.

* The Fed makes its first major expansion of the money supply since February 1930.

* Congress creates the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. (More)

* Congress passes the Federal Home Loan Bank Act and the Glass-Steagall Act of 1932. (More)

* Top tax rate is raised from 25 to 63 percent.

* Popular opinion considers Hoover's measures too little too late. Franklin Roosevelt easily defeats Hoover in the fall election. Democrats win control of Congress.

* At his Democratic presidential nomination, Roosevelt says: "I pledge you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people."

1933

* Roosevelt inaugurated; begins "First 100 Days" of intensive legislative activity. (More)

* A third banking panic occurs in March. Roosevelt declares a Bank Holiday; closes financial institutions to stop a run on banks.

* Alarmed by Roosevelt's plan to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, a group of millionaire businessmen, led by the Du Pont and J.P. Morgan empires, plans to overthrow Roosevelt with a military coup and install a fascist government. The businessmen try to recruit General Smedley Butler, promising him an army of 500,000, unlimited financial backing and generous media spin control. The plot is foiled when Butler reports it to Congress. (More)

* Congress authorizes creation of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Farm Credit Administration, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Federal Emergency Relief Administration, the National Recovery Administration, the Public Works Administration and the Tennessee Valley Authority. (More)

* Congress passes the Emergency Banking Bill, the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, the Farm Credit Act, the National Industrial Recovery Act and the Truth-in-Securities Act. (More)

* U.S. goes off the gold standard.

* Roosevelt does much to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, but is obsessed with a balanced budget. He later rejects Keynes' advice to begin heavy deficit spending.

* The free fall of the GNP is significantly slowed; it dips only 2.1 percent this year. Unemployment rises slightly, to 24.9 percent.

1934

* Congress authorizes creation of the Federal Communications Commission, the National Mediation Board and the Securities and Exchange Commission. (More)

* Congress passes the Securities and Exchange Act and the Trade Agreement Act. (More)

* The economy turns around: GNP rises 7.7 percent, and unemployment falls to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery begins.

* Sweden becomes the first nation to recover fully from the Great Depression. It has followed a policy of Keynesian deficit spending. (More)

1935

* The Supreme Court declares the National Recovery Administration to be unconstitutional.

* Congress authorizes creation of the Works Progress Administration, the National Labor Relations Board and the Rural Electrification Administration. (More)

* Congress passes the Banking Act of 1935, the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act, the National Labor Relations Act, and the Social Security Act. (More)

* Economic recovery continues: the GNP grows another 8.1 percent, and unemployment falls to 20.1 percent.

1936

* The Supreme Court declares part of the Agricultural Adjustment Act to be unconstitutional.

* In response, Congress passes the Soil Conservation and Domestic Allotment Act. (More)

* Top tax rate raised to 79 percent.

* Economic recovery continues: GNP grows a record 14.1 percent; unemployment falls to 16.9 percent.

* Germany becomes the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, through heavy deficit spending in preparation for war.

1937

* The Supreme Court declares the National Labor Relations Board to be unconstitutional.

* Roosevelt seeks to enlarge and therefore liberalize the Supreme Court. This attempt not only fails, but outrages the public.

* Economists attribute economic growth so far to heavy government spending that is somewhat deficit. Roosevelt, however, fears an unbalanced budget and cuts spending for 1937. That summer, the nation plunges into another recession. Despite this, the yearly GNP rises 5.0 percent, and unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.

1938

* Congress passes the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938 and the Fair Labor Standards Act. (More)

* No major New Deal legislation is passed after this date, due to Roosevelt's weakened political power.

* The year-long recession makes itself felt: the GNP falls 4.5 percent, and unemployment rises to 19.0 percent.

* Britain becomes the third nation to recover as it begins deficit spending in preparation for war.

1939

* GNP rises 7.9 percent; unemployment falls to 17.2 percent.

* The United States will begin emerging from the Depression as it borrows and spends $1 billion to build its armed forces. From 1939 to 1941, when the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, U.S. manufacturing will have shot up a phenomenal 50 percent!

* The Depression is ending worldwide as nations prepare for the coming hostilities.

* World War II starts with Hitler's invasion of Poland.

1945

* Although the war is the largest tragedy in human history, the United States emerges as the world's only economic superpower. Deficit spending has resulted in a national debt 123 percent the size of the GDP. By contrast, in 1994, the $4.7 trillion national debt will be only 70 percent of the GDP!

* The top tax rate is 91 percent. It will stay at least 88 percent until 1963, when it is lowered to 70 percent. During this time, America will experience the greatest economic boom it has ever known.

ECONOMIC TIMELINE

The following timeline shows the order of economic events during the Great Depression. Notice the effect that deficit spending had on economic growth:

Receipts: Tax receipts as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product

Spending: Federal spending as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product

GNP: Percent change in the Gross National Product

Unemp.: Unemployment rate

Tax Federal GNP Unemp.
Year Receipts Spending Growth Rate
-------------------------------------------------
1929 -- -- -- 3.2% < Hoover era, Great Depression begins
1930 4.2% 3.4% - 9.4% 8.7
1931 3.7 4.3 - 8.5 15.9
1932 2.9 7.0 -13.4 23.6
1933 3.5 8.1 - 2.1 24.9 < FDR, New Deal begins; contraction ends March
1934 4.9 10.8 + 7.7 21.7
1935 5.3 9.3 + 8.1 20.1
1936 5.1 10.6 +14.1 16.9
1937 6.2 8.7 + 5.0 14.3 < recession begins, May
1938 7.7 7.8 - 4.5 19.0 < recession ends, June
1939 7.2 10.4 + 7.9 17.2
1940 6.9 9.9
1941 7.7 12.1
1942 10.3 24.8
1943 13.7 44.8
1944 21.7 45.3
1945 21.3 43.7

As you can see, Roosevelt began relatively modest deficit spending that arrested the slide of the economy and resulted in some astonishing growth numbers. (Roosevelt's average growth of 5.2 percent during the Great Depression is even higher than Reagan's 3.7 percent growth during his so-called "Seven Fat Years!") When 1936 saw a phenomenal record of 14 percent growth, Roosevelt eased back on the deficit spending, overly worried about balancing the budget. But this only caused the economy to slip back into a recession, as the above chart shows.

I have been unable to find reliable economic growth figures from World War II, but as a generalization it is safe to say the economy exploded, experiencing it’s greatest growth in U.S. history. Between 1940 and 1945, the GDP nearly doubled in size, from $832 billion to $1,559 billion in constant 87 dollars. And this occurred as deficit spending soared, to levels Keynes had earlier and unsuccessfully recommended to Roosevelt.

Next Section: Summary
Return to The Great Depression Homepage

Sources:

T.H. Watkins, The Great Depression: America in the 1930s (New York: Little, Brown and Company, 1993)

Kevin Phillips, Boiling Point (New York: HarperCollins, 1993)

Kevin Phillips, The Politics of Rich and Poor (New York: Random House, 1990)

The 1995 Grolier Encyclopedia (Entries: New Deal, Depression of the 30s, Roosevelt, Coolidge.)

The Encyclopedia Brittanica Online (Entries: New Deal, Great Depression.)

Donald Barlett and James Steele, America: What Went Wrong? (Kansas City: Andrews and McMeel, 1992)

Donald Barlett and James Steele, America: Who Really Pays the Taxes? (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1994)

James MacGregor Fox, Roosevelt: The Lion and the Fox (New York: Konecky and Konecky, 1956)

Elaine Schwartz, Econ 101½ (New York: Avon Books, 1995)

Peter Pugh and Chris Garratt, Introducing Keynes (Cambridge, England: Icon Books, Ltd., 1993)

Paul Krugman, Peddling Prosperity (New York: W.W. Norton and Company, 1994)

Online sources:

History lecture notes: http://www.marshall.edu/history/mccarthy/hst331/lecture/greatdep.1

Gary H. Stern (President, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis), "Achieving Economic Stability: Lessons From the Crash of 1929," 1987 Annual Report Essay, http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/pubs/ar/ar1987.html

Office of Management and Budget, Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 1997, Historical Tables 1.2 and 10.1, http://www.doc.gov/BudgetFY97/histtoc.html

[LunaBaby]

Thanks for posting that Deb.
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[LunaBaby]

The National Debt:

2000 - 5,674
2005 - 7,933
2006 - 8,506.9
2007 - 9,008
2008 - 9,654 (trillion) Sept.
2008 - 10,024,7 (revised with ½ bailout 350 billion included or deposited in their accounts)

The top 1% of households own almost 40% of the nation's wealth.
The top 4% of Americans own 60% of the nation's wealth.
The top 10% of Americans own over 70% of nation's wealth.
The top 20% of the nation's households own 85% of the nation's total wealth.

The bottom 40% of households own one-fifth of 1% (or 0.2%) of the nation's wealth.
The bottom 60% of Americans own only 5% of the nation's wealth.
The bottom 80% of Americans own only 15% of the nation's wealth.

The total wealth in America totals $27 trillion dollars.
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[etane]

That almost looks like a caste system.
_________________
Father, father
We don't need to escalate
You see, war is not the answer
For only love can conquer hate
You know we've got to find a way
To bring some lovin' here today

M. Gaye

[Concreteson]

Thats what it is. First year sociology teaches you that for most people any economic movement in status in western society will be downward. If you are born middle class, you stay middle class or go down.

People who move up are pretty rare and this is how western capitalist "castes" remain in tact.

[Agape]

Well, I started in the very lower middle class, as did many of my friends. Due to the very hard work and sacrifice of our parents, we were educated and then worked our fannies off to achieve what I have been told is the top 5% according to the IRS. Also, my state is one of the highest contributors to charity, so the American system is not all bad. I know it seems totally unfair about the haves and have nots. There should not be this discrepancy in the U.S.; however, I used to audit a lot of government programs and ALL (housing, education, community development) except the U.S. Small Business Administration were just JOKES. Of course, the SBA created entreprenuership, jobs, taxes, etc. It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't a total waste of tax dollars.

[LunaBaby]

Well, not disagreeing at all. However, I know a lot of very poor people, you know the working poor, that work their fannies off and get no where. I also know a couple that are or have gotten somewhere. Some of it is money management. Things like delaying gratification, for example.

However, the past 30 or even 50 years, have led to so many rules in the system that favor the already wealthy and that are so stacked against the "little" people, that even good money management and hard work can hardly get someone ahead anymore.

labor comes to mind. I know we need to balance that with the need for "small" people to start their own businesses. But that is part of it to. The past 15-20 years have stacked the deck in favor of big global corporations so that the small guys can hardly make a start up. It's still possible though, just really hard.

I think our downfall is a debt driven system. There is almost no reward for saving. Everything has been geared towards investment and globalization, iow, exporting jobs. Investment is good but not the way it is right now. In the current atmosphere, investment has gotten to be too high risk. I'm not an economist, so feel free to tear that apart. lol I'm not even going to pretend to know.

I don't know the solution just yet. It's almost a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. I think there is a real need to go back to the old drawing board. We have tons of creativity in America and that has, and always will be, our salvation.
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[sakeringo]

Very interesting stuff. I think deb's post does a good job of pointing out that as terrible as our doom cryers call it, when you follow the time line and events of the Great Depression, it could be very much worse and we are quite a ways from that yet.

Our challenge, then, seems fairly obvious - to keep it from going there a second time. We're only in the very beginning stages of this downslide. Let's focus and hope that we have advanced intellectually and spiritually enough to turn it around and to be practical enough not to expect that fix to happen in an instant. Let's save the panic for a more appropriate time in the interest of finding solutions other than doom. Luna pointed out something very important. Many of the causes of this dilemma are not the same as the first time.

I'll take that one farther. We are not the people nor the society of the 1920's either. This is not going to be identical, and for that very reason there is hope that we will not go down as far as we might think this time. Why assume we are "there" when we are not. Not by a long shot. Not yet.

Look above. It took YEARS to get there and YEARS to recover.

Have we as a world society learned enough to save ourselves? What if we have? That possibility is just as strong as what if we haven't. The answer remains to be seen, but the answer lies smack dab with our focus. Shall we accept defeat without even fighting because we think we are already in a place and time which was very different from this one? So it sucks. So give up?

When it comes to financial collapse, most of the imaginary lines which separate us as citizens of the planet as a whole evaporate fairly quickly, don't they? One nation falls, then another follows and another. Just shows you how artificial the barriers mankind agrees upon to separate us really are. The financial system built on gambling, aka the stock market, is collapsing. Am I the only one not surprised by this?

Sadly, the one common thread in this whole past, present, and possible future scenario is a deep-seeded corruption at the level of leadership. And don't kid yourselves. Nearly every country is fucked in that respect. None are exempt. Not news to any of us. It's all going down folks, in every hemisphere. The God of money is proving to be a house of cards. It's been a fun ride all these centuries, draining the planet we were given to steward, but it's finally caught up with us.

We need to find a better way. And there is where the focus needs to be. Maybe someone who will be in the next century's history books as a major hero who saved the world economy will come up with that way. And wouldn't it be nice if we turned it around sooner this time? Before it gets as bad as it did in the Great Depression? Can we put aside our tunnel vision for five minutes and realize that the Great Depression did not belong only to America, but to every world power? This is GLOBAL.

They turned it around then. They can do it now if they put their minds to it and work together instead of at cross purposes because my country is better than yours. By the way, that river and those mountains that separate our nations is nothing but an imaginary boundary.

How ironic that we stubbornly continue to refuse to perceive ourselves as one people, as earthlings instead of Frenchmen and Americans and Japanese, etc. etc. when something like this puts that fact right in our faces. Maybe it all really needs to collapse, awful and difficult though that would be, in order for us to begin to grasp how similar we are in our diversity and how we need to work together and embrace peace for the sake of us all. Could this economic doom be one of the keys to cleansing and healing the human race?

Hell, I don't want to go through this shit anymore than anyone else. I'm just asking myself questions that transcend the obvious. I'd like to believe that if the world's leaders started asking these questions it would have a very good effect.

[MerryMermaid]

DOW was down by 347+ points a bit ago... (just sayin'...)

[LunaBaby]

Dow Jones Industrial Average ($INDU)

8,810.72 down -500.27 -5.37%

Yikes!
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[MerryMermaid]

DOW down -538.42 (5.78%)

uh oh

[MerryMermaid]

-554.35 (5.95%)

2:22 p.m.

gulp

It's like a bad accident... I wanna look, but when I do - seeing the numbers makes me want to squeeze my eyes shut and look away!!!

Outta sight - outta mind!!!!!!!!!

[LunaBaby]

A freaking train wreck is what it is!
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[deb cathey]

Just thought I would give you an example of how wall street works.

Once upon a time, in a village, a man appeared and announced to the
villagers that he would buy monkeys for $10 each.

The villagers, seeing that there were many monkeys around, went out to
the forest and started catching them. The man bought thousands at $10
and, as supply started to diminish, the villagers stopped their effort.
He further announced that he would now buy at $20 for a monkey.

This renewed the efforts of the villagers and they started catching
monkeys again. Soon the supply diminished even further and people
started going back to their farms. The offer increased to $25 each, and
the supply of monkeys became so small that it was an effort to even find
a monkey, let alone catch it!

The man now announced that he would buy monkeys at $50! However, since
he had to go to the city on some business, his
assistant would now buy
on behalf of him.

In the absence of the man, the assistant told the villagers. "Look at
all these monkeys in the big cage that the man has collected.
I will sell them to you at $35, and when the man returns from the
city, you can sell them to him for $50 each."

The villagers rounded up
all their savings and bought all the monkeys.

They never saw the man nor his assistant again, only monkeys everywhere!


Now you have a better understanding of how Wall Street works.


Couldn't explain it any better!

[Agape]

Deb, I meant to thank you earlier about all the detailed info you gave. It really puts things in perspective.

LunaBaby, I really do agree with what you've said in your posts - especially about the "working poor" and how difficult it is. I certainly have no solutions. I just don't trust the government to do anything constructive - no matter who is in power.

Which leads to Sakeringo's point. You are a voice of wisdom. How do we change the consciousness of man? I believe only by allowing the divine love of God to work in and through us.

Dow finish - down 733.08...

[sakeringo]

I suppose we change the consciousness of man by changing our own consciousness as individuals to start. Light is contagious. There have been many instances of a single man changing the consciousness of multitudes.

You've heard the names. Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tsu, Ghandi, Mohammed, Moses, Thoth, Seneca, Aknaten, the Dalai Lamas, I could go on.

I think if we raise our own personal perspective and focus and look to something "higher" in the way of understanding we raise us all. Even in our lifetimes there are examples of people who have done this. Think of Helen Keller and then think of how it would be to not have sight, hearing, or a voice. Yet out of that darkness emerged a woman who left a legacy of clarity and wisdom. She spoke and was heard.

The ether is all around us. Everything we think and believe and feel affects the ether. Just as every drop of rain affects the sea so does every human being affect the sum total of humanity and extend to the planet and onward with no limit.

We are facing a great challenge. Not the first. This can be our shining hour. Mankind has not been on the planet so long. Not as long as the dinosaurs which fascinate so many of us. But so far, regardless of our folly and our wars and the confusion our focus has brought us, numerous times we, we who are human, HAVE risen to the challenge and emerged higher and better. I personally have no reason to assume we will not do so again.

You cannot doom me to hopelessness for the simple reason that I do know my history and I do know what amazing and nearly magical things we have accomplished as a species IN SPITE OF what APPEARS TO BE bad shit.

How do we raise consciousness? Raise our own. Feed someone homeless. Comfort someone mourning. Love someone other than ourselves. Be grateful for the blessings we have been given. Seek joy no matter what circumstances present themselves. Have compassion. Get out of our own selfish heads and help someone in need. Find ways to love.

Money is only money. Money is not God. If we lose everything we have not lost everything.

Google songs from the Great Depression. There are great lessons there. "Shanty in Old Shanty Town," "Look for the Silver Lining," "Beyond the Blue Horizon," etc. there are lots of them. Read those lyrics and understand that those who went before us did NOT despair. Know it in your heart and the ether will carry it to another's.

It's okay to be happy. Moreso now than ever before. Counting those numbers as they sink and then rise and sink and then rise and sink and then rise and sink and then - see? Look out the window! Better yet - step outside and breathe the glorious clean air of Autumn and look at the fabulous colors in the sky. Have some faith for God's sake. For all our sakes.

My parents lived through the Great Depression. This is not the end of the world. Not then and not now.

[LunaBaby]

I love you sakers.
_________________

[deb cathey]

I don't think anyone has connected my two posts. Folks we are only a few steps away from a depression, but that doesn't mean we are totally doomed. Just, we the average middle class world wide will but put back into our middle class standard of the working poor or working stiff.

The things that brought on the Great Depression mirrors many things that are happening now. Who controls this? The elite rich who were born with a silver spoon. I'm talking old money, that's been in families for many generations. Family's that did not lose their wealth in the crash of 29 and won't lose it now. Why, because they made even more money of off the middle class people.

During the 20's credit was easily obtained, people got credit bought homes, cars, radios, clothes and so on. Jobs started out plentiful and people wanted to earn more money easily. They borrowed money and bought into stocks buying on the margin. At that time who really owned most all stock? The elite wealthy. Sure they would sell stock at over inflated prices so you would go borrow more money to buy more things. Then you were borrowing to pay off a loan. You would borrow from one bank to pay a loan at another bank. Vicious cycle that soon started to catch up and people were defaulting on loans and banks no longer had cash on hand therefore they folded. Then you had employment problems. People were losing jobs because there was a surge of new technology that would replace workers in many factories. Machines were doing their jobs faster and better. Now these people were no longer needed and their skills were obsolete. Construction start to wain but the whole time these elite rich were making money off of there loans and laughing all the way to the bank. But they did not bank in the US. Most had the majority of their money in accounts abroad that were very old an established firms. Pocket change was kept here. Then you had all the money being made on wheat. Europe was trying to recover from WWI, and their wheat fields were destroyed. For once the US could sell our grain and get top dollar. Farmers continued to plant more and more but Europe finally recovered and their fields could finally produce grain and no longer needed to import. Our future prices in 28 and 29 went from $4 a bushel to around .40 cents a bushel. The depression was world wide what made it so bad here is we had a natural disaster, the Dust Bowl.

Now a lot of the same scenarios have happened now. Only right now we are in a recession, but it wouldn't take much to push us into a depression. One thing we have going for us right now is, there is no huge natural disaster. Which now brings me to this coming winter.

This just might be one winter that we won't forget. Not saying this from visions or dreams. This is based off of things my granny taught me when I was young. Last year we had a drought and some areas are still very close to going back into drought status now. We actually had a winter and a true spring. Summer was normal, Fall has been slow getting here. We have had bumper crops of fruit, but it is extremely bitter and gardens produced some of the strangest shaped veggies you have ever seen. Even though the fruit is bitter the seeds are growing sprouts quicker than I have ever seen. Do you know how hard it is to sprout an apple tree from seeds? Really hard and they are sprouting where ever an apple lands. Same thing for other fruit trees. Now to what my granny taught me. If you have dry years and then suddenly have a good growing year and the fruit is bitter but the seeds sprout easily you will have one very hard winter. Why, because the trees have to put more energy into protect their survival during a harsh winter which will make the fruit bitter.
So we might want to keep a watchful eye on the weather this winter it could be a really bad one.

[dnatree]

I was looking where to post this as Pam and I were traveling all over the Fresno area and we kept running into apples everywhere. We stopped in the mountains to buy a bag of apples from a cart with a slot to put the money in. We ate at Apple Annies next to the motel in Tulare. Apple Synch. Apples and cider everywhere.
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Don't believe me or anyone, rather ask the Spirit what the true intentions of Your heart are and believe every word that You get from the Spirit. Father, let me learn only to speak as YOU speak through me.

[deb cathey]

Dna - where they sweet or did they have a little bit of a bitter taste? Just wondering! But like you said apples apples everywhere!

[FlyingInTheLight]

I split the last three replies to a new topic in Roughing It since they were about gardening rather than this topic. The thread name is "Gardening issues" if you're looking for it.

Carry on. :)
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Align yourself with those who seek the truth, and avoid those who have found it. - Vaclav Havel

Fundamentalism n.: fund = give money to; amentalism = brainlessness

[MerryMermaid]

[Pinky]

[dnatree]

The apples were very sweet but small and even had bird marks on them. The Apple pie at Apple Annies was wonderful, the best I have ever had. The apples were like the kind You would pick off Your own tree in West Virginny.

Apple Annies in Tulare, ca. next to the Motel 6


Them Apples

MerriMaid I did not see that online thing about the horse but we did speak of horses at the moment we got these apples off that cart. That these were for small horses. You don't have to be good first as the fearful teach, You don't have to earn it, You just have to appreciate each good thing that comes and put little energy towards each negative thing that comes.


Now as for all the money loss in the market that is what I have been posting since Prophecies and also to let Yall know that what You need is relationship with Spirit so that instead of money the moment will provide through synchronicity. The fearful masses that wish to control their fears have been bound by their own belief in that they have a veil of shame and blame to pass through before they allow themselves to recieve. They did not get this interpretation from Spirit they got it from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil and shame and blame and they love a lie more than the truth. As all the interpretations of men fail and the leaders fail by using them to make choices synchronicity is increasing and my abundance is increasing through synchronicity, this is a wonderful time for folks in the Spirit. Swift

I feel a synch with the bitter apple and this tree of shame and blame. Bitter cider/vinager as the "right people" pass toward the cross to new life. The passage from the rightness of man which is of the flesh/brain knowing facts which turn out to be wrong to the rightness of Spirit that comes through experience with the word/synchs. They demand their interpretation of the book is the word of God but the smallest of points will nail everyone to the Tree.
_________________
Don't believe me or anyone, rather ask the Spirit what the true intentions of Your heart are and believe every word that You get from the Spirit. Father, let me learn only to speak as YOU speak through me.